(no subject)

[merelyn]

I put this up at sga_noticeboard, but there were spoilery comments for "Trinity" on it, and the post got accidentally deleted instead of the comments (and actually, I don't think you're supposed to have discussions on there anyway, oops, just links). Anyway, I was asked to repost it, and decided to put it up here and link to it.

I have a random question about "Condemned":



Okay, so after I watch the episode on Friday, I was talking to my sister about it, and both of us were kind of confused as to what was going on with Rodney fixing the Puddle Jumper. I re-watched it, and I'm still confused. The different reviews I've read seem to say to different things about it as well.

Was he bluffing about not being able to fix it? If so, what for? The jumper was pretty much a sunk cost, and powering up the gate for the convicts wouldn't have been that bad; it certainly wasn't presented as such in the episode.

Did he know how to fix it but didn't realize it consciously, and somehow Eldon and John picked up on it better than Rodney himself?

Or is it a case of everyone assuming that Rodney could fix it, and him honestly not being able to (which you know, is technically true, because he *couldn't* get the thing the fly). Was Torrell's comment about Rodney waiting to fix it at the last minute in order to make himself out to be a bigger hero completely off the mark or not? (Considering that Torrell nailed him pretty well otherwise?)

What do you think?

Comments

[zoerayne]

I think that Rodney had considered the possibility, but rejected it as being a) not terribly useful, and b) almost impossible. I think he's telling the truth when he keeps saying that he can't do what they want him to do; he doesn't think that something like a one percent chance of being able to reroute secondary power to the dialing device (and intermittent power at that) is actually going to do them any good.

I just don't get the same body-language cues from him that I got when he was bluffing Kolya, and I think DH is a good enough actor to keep those things consistent.

Also, I think the look he gives John (when John agrees that they'll take Eldon with them when they escape) is very telling. It's half "Oh my God, you are on crack! It's broken!" and half an awed "Oh my God, you really believe I can do anything, don't you?"

So there. My 2¢ worth. *g*

[terrie01.livejournal.com]

I thought some of it was "Look, if we tell Rodney we KNOW he knows how to fix it, he'll come up with something." A bit like Dumbo's magic feather, I suppose.

[spikedluv]

What she said. *points above* I know that's not very helpful, but z_rayne really did say what I was thinking, and even better. *g*

I think Rodney thought it was unfixable. His reaction in the jumper seemed genuine, as did his reaction in the hut. I don't think he was lying (especially with everyone's lives on the line), but perhaps John realizes that not only does Rodney exaggerate problems to make himself look better when he actually does get it fixed (as John, Elizabeth and Terrell all suggest), but he also exaggerates them in the opposite direction and psyches himself out of being able to fix them. Or perhaps they do just expect too much of him. Either way, I don't believe Rodney was bluffing.

[tallihensia.livejournal.com]

I don't think he was bluffing. In fact, I was puzzled as heck when Shep seemed to believe the bad guys that Rodney was bluffing and even more surprised when he said Rodney was a horrible liar. From what I could see, Rodney was sure he couldn't fix it, and the alternative idea was just that, a low-probability alternative.

On the other hand, Shep might have thought that if the bad guys really thought he couldn't fix it, they might kill them all out of hand so he was telling Rodney to fix it just to save their lives. But it really did look like Shep believed him...

Rodney's first inclination *is* to go more with the odds than the long-shots. (Which, considering odds, is certainly more logical.) The gang often has to talk him into doing what he thinks is impossible in the first place, and he has done so pretty much every time. (The Storm...) Which probably gives them an overinflated view of his estimations in the first place. But I keep thinking about the point in Seige I where Grodin is psyching him into working on it. And the early one in 38minutes Rodney's more natural tendency is to despair at bad odds, and he has to be talked out of it. I don't think he ever over-inflates how bad a situation is to make himself look good (as has also been suggested). I think in this case, John might have thought there was a solution that Rodney just hadn't been encouraged to try yet because of the odds.

Which, on thinking that out, is now making me feel a bit better about that scene and John's reaction. I'd really been scratching my head over it. Thanks for asking the question!

[foggynite.livejournal.com]

I interpreted it as Rodney 1) knowing the jumper was broken and that it wouldn't be able to operate the way the convicts expected it to, and 2) reluctant to try anything else for fear of the convicts either reaching Atlantis or thinking he was screwing around and killing everyone in retaliation. John knows that Rodney is a master at improv under stress not that Rodney's had a lot of practice or anything and probably expected Rodney to have two or forty back-up plans, knowing that Rodney would psyche himself out of most of them. So he says he's a bad liar for all the reasons mentioned in the comments above, and provides the blind faith in Rodney that the man himself is lacking. I would go into Rodney's defensive pessimism, but that's a meta discussion for another time...

[npkedit.livejournal.com]

Well, some of it may have to do with Rodney's tendency to follow the Montgomery Scott rule of miracle working, which inflates fix times to X degree.

I thought Rodney genuinely believed the jumper was unfixable so far as flying (he may not have considered the other options until faced with imminent danger). On the other hand, I think Tallihensia is correct: Rodney tends to be more practical in computing odds than the rest of the gang, which is why they may go more for the long shot. Why not? Rodney's come through for them in the past. He's shown himself to be incredibly adept at working (and being creative) under intense pressure, so they may have a very different view of him than he does of himself.

But what I really want to know is this--how the heck did Torrell know Rodney would be the go-to guy for fix-it jobs to begin with? It's not as if he'd met any of the gang before then. There had to have been a lot of missing scene time in between their capture and the Torrell ordering McKay to fix the ship (especially for Torrell to get such a decent fix on Rodney).

[lurkerlynne.livejournal.com]

But what I really want to know is this--how the heck did Torrell know Rodney would be the go-to guy for fix-it jobs to begin with? It's not as if he'd met any of the gang before then.

Howzabout this; Of the four, Rodney is softer around the edges and stays out of the way during the ambush, ergo- not a fighter/warrior/whathaveyou. Why bring a non-fighter along on your exploration of a convict island? Tho' the leap to jumper-mechanic is a pretty big one.

Then again, Rodney has a large mouth and doesn't always know when to keep it shut.

[merelyn.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this! Yeah, I agree, it does make a lot more sense when you think about in terms of past incidents, where Rodney has had to be psyched into going for the Hail Mary. After reading through the comments, I think I've got a clearer picture of Rodney's position.

But I still don't have a have a handle on John's reaction.

I think in this case, John might have thought there was a solution that Rodney just hadn't been encouraged to try yet because of the odds.

Yeah, but I think John could have come out and said that- "Well maybe you can't get it to fly like they want, but there's got to be a way to get us off the island, come up with something." After all, it's not like there were any bad guys around to hear him at the time- that they knew of.

Still, I tend to think that John genuinely does think that Rodney is bluffing- at first. When Torrell says that line about Rodney being the kind of person who inflates his own last-minute "miraculous" accomplishments to make himself out to be more impressive, there's an interesting reaction shot from John, where he narrows his eyes at Rodney. It's like he's thinking that Torrell could be right, and that Rodney is holding back on everybody. I got the same vibe off the whole "terrible liar" exchange as well. He seems not just frustrated- which I think he would be if he thought it was just Rodney's usual "we're screwed" dramatics- but pissed at Rodney, as though Rodney is deliberately lying to him about it. And when Rodney tells him about the slight possibility for escape, John's smirky little "See?" is all "Ha. I knew you were holding back, you bastard."

Or maybe it's just that Rodney has come through for them every time before, and John counts on that, and he's mad that Rodney can't deliver this time, so he get's all pissy and thinks that Rodney must be lying.

Whatever is going on before, I think that by the end John does seem to realize that Rodney was right about the whole long shot thing. When Rodney explains that it's still a long shot and that the power is going to be intermittent at best. He has this "Uh. Right then." moment. I read it as him realizing that maybe Rodney might not be able to make it all better, and that they might be more screwed than he thought. After all, if Sheppard had really got it, I don't think he'd have been asking before about the cloak generator.

Still, it is interesting that his intial reaction was, at least as I see it, to distrust Rodney in favor of Torrell.

[zoerayne]

The power of positive thinking? Rodney would so mock that idea ("Oh, yes, I'm sure if we were all to wish it better, it would happen. I'll bet you clapped for Tinkerbell, too, didn't you Colonel?"), but I think you might be right to some degree. *g*

[zoerayne]

there's an interesting reaction shot from John, where he narrows his eyes at Rodney. It's like he's thinking that Torrell could be right, and that Rodney is holding back on everybody.

See, and I saw that reaction shot as being aimed at Torrell for what he was saying about Rodney. John's pretty protective of his team (like when Bates was claiming Teyla was probably the Wraith spy), and he tends to react to people dissing them before he actually thinks about what's being said.

[merelyn.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'd think that too, except that his later reactions and the whole "terrible liar" thing seem to indicate that he might actually agree with Torrell. I dunno. *still kind of confused*

[tallihensia.livejournal.com]

{sigh} Yeah. I was trying to psych myself into believing that it wasn't so. I thought in the first season, they'd gotten beyond all that. But then... in the Storm, John did *not* want to believe that Rodney didn't have an answer. Even the "I'm not Superman" "I wasn't thinking that" exchange... didn't so much prove that John didn't honestly think that he couldn't do it, but that John was ribbing him -- he still believed he had the solution. And they came up with one in the end. In there too... we also had the idea of John's over-inflated ideas of Rodney by coming up with the "What would Rodney do" line. Maybe part of the problem this year is that Rodney's idea from Seige for the power conversion to the chair and remote the jumper failed and John just can't believe that still. (Which plot device, btw, I think was totally bad writing, but I won't touch that... ;p)

I hate to believe that badly about John, but you're right, it really really looked like he believed the bad guy. And I don't like *that* implication one little bit.

{::am totally scared for next week::}

I think that by the end John does seem to realize that Rodney was right about the whole long shot thing. When Rodney explains that it's still a long shot and that the power is going to be intermittent at best. He has this "Uh. Right then." moment.

Okay, yeah -- I can totally see that in the episode. That's when *John* started making his alternative plans. Up until then, he really had been playing mostly a waiting game. So that gives even more thought to the idea that he didn't believe Rodney at first. ~..^

[tallihensia.livejournal.com]

how the heck did Torrell know Rodney would be the go-to guy for fix-it jobs to begin with

I saw that one of coming straight from Rodney himself. When Torrell asked the question, he wasn't looking at any one of them in particular, but *Rodney* was the one who answered it and with a pretty definitive stance of "It's unfixable but I would be the one fixing it" -- not so much in words, but his whole attitude shouted it (good acting from DH).

[sivib.livejournal.com]

I see Rodney as a true-blue pessimist. I live with one of those, so I like to believe I have something of an idea of how they think. My husband is constantly talking himself out of things, imagining all the things that could go wrong with a given scenario to the point where he gets paralyzed. I call it throwing up roadblocks, because it has about the same effect on his life.

If Rodney thinks at all like that, then he probably truly does not see all the alternatives, no matter how smart he is (hubby is one smart cookie, too). He'll be too busy seeing how something *can't* work to find a way to *make* it work, until someone tears down his roadblocks and shows him a way, or at least a route to a way. In my marriage, this is my job. With Rodney, I suspect it is John's job mostly, and after him Radek. I don't think Teyla or Weir quite understand the mindset well enough to counter it, yet, and only see the annoying foot-dragging.

Just my 2p worth.

[zoerayne]

I kinda wonder if John was bluffing there. Trying to make Eldon believe Rodney could fix the ship so that he'd let them go, and then John figured they'd...make up a plan as they went along. John kinda does that. *g*

[merelyn.livejournal.com]

Maybe part of the problem this year is that Rodney's idea from Seige for the power conversion to the chair and remote the jumper failed and John just can't believe that still. (Which plot device, btw, I think was totally bad writing, but I won't touch that... ;p)

Yeah, things around Atlantis do tend to break at the most inopportune moments, coincidentally leading to a lot of drama and heroics, don't they? :) I prefer to see it as being...realistic, shall we say, where you can come up with a perfect plan and wouldn't you know it, the thingamajig breaks just when you need it to work the most, for no discernable reason whatsoever. (*kicks printer*) It seems like a very Atlantis thing to happen, what with the "pulling this out of our asses" theme that pervades the show.

The first time the writers did it, I thought it was kind of cool. But I hope they don't keep on plugging it into episodes, as it would be frustrating to keep seeing them devote all this energy and plot in a direction, only to completely diffuse it by arbitrarily having the plan fail due to a technical malfunction. It's kind of like a deus ex machina in reverse- and if you want to talk about deus ex machina, can I just mention the Daedalus beaming John away in Seige III, before he even has time to angst about his noble impending death? Bah. (Okay, so you might don't want to touch that, but apparently I don't have a problem with it. Heh.)

And yes, I do have that ominous feeling that whatever was going on with Rodney and John last week, it's going to be nothing compared to this week.

[merelyn.livejournal.com]

Hmm. That's very interesting. I could see that.

[merelyn.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes, I definitely see Rodney as that type; he's definitely hyper-aware of everything that could be out to get him, from citrus, to dangerous levels of sunlight, to Power Bar shortages.

Still, I think he has genuine scientific curiosity, I guess I'll call it, working against that. If Rodney always let his thinking be limited by traditional views on what should and shouldn't work, I don't think he'd have been able to come of with some of the things he's been able to- though obviously, he's had help.

I see a lot of Rodney's behavior as a kind of conflict between these two forces, if you will: his instictive "Oh god oh god we're all going to die" feelings and his brain's ability to come up with those crazy, brilliant "Rodney McKay kind of plans". And you're right- he often needs a push in the right direction. In "Condemned" I definitely saw him getting that from John; it's only John's reaction that still has me confused.

[tallihensia.livejournal.com]

That's happened to me at work... (printer breaking right before meetings, argh). Yeah. Happens. LOL, but wasn't it Jack London who said something to the effect that you can't write in fiction what happens in fact because people would never believe it?

Overall, I've never been impressed with SG writing on it's own. And their science mostly sucks. ;p But their character dynamics... {happy sigh} Their character dynamics usually more than make up for the other bits. I can put on the suspension of disbelief in a good cause. ^__^ I just have to be careful that I don't discuss it too much or I end up totally pulling out each and every hole and end up talking myself out of liking it, lol. Otherwise, I would *love* going there and touching that (and boy, do I sound dirty now). ^^

reverse deus ex machinas and forward dues ex machinas -- SG writers dream horses. ;D And things they'd never let us get away with in fanfiction, lol!

I think I would have been more upset over the beaming away if it hadn't already been 100% spoiled before I saw it. And luckily, they moved quickly on to the next thing so we didn't have a chance to reflect on it. "Nothing to see here, move right along." ^^

Er, are we still supposed to be keeping plot spoilers out of this thread? {looks carefully around} Though it's not really a spoiler since I haven't read spoilers, just me watching the previews... Ah well. It'll be a wait and see thing, I guess. {chews on fingernails}

I'll go rewatch some favorite season one instead. ^^

[tallihensia.livejournal.com]

Yes, that! I was trying to say something like that originally in the second paragraph and totally missed saying it, I think. :)

But the *looks* still don't quite fit with that. Ah well. Maybe they tried...

[merelyn.livejournal.com]

Yeah, from my experience with SGA, the writing is either great (like Letters from Pegasus, say), or complete crap (Intruder, don't get me started), or both AT THE SAME TIME, in that special way that only SGA can do it. Still, when I put my mind to it, I'm generally good at sailing blissfully over the plot holes and filling in the inconsistencies through some quality fandom.

Not so much lately. Geez, I've just got to stop being such an SGA meta-whore. It's totally ruining my enjoyment of the show. *g*

Uh, as for spoilers, I said in the link/cut tag that they're allowed, though I'm not spoiled much beyond next week's teaser myself, and I haven't seen anything beyond oblique references of dread for the next ep.

[tallihensia.livejournal.com]

{giggle} That's opposite of me... well, nearly. I liked Intruder, actually. One of the few this season. Though there were still parts of it that had me rolling my eyes nearly out of my head.

Meta-whore! ;D

Okay then on spoilers... What I'm most afraid of next week? It's not that McKay fails because he *can't* do everything all the time... but it's looking to me like they have him fail because his ego said it could be done and he insisted it could and then it failed big time.

Which is, actually, somewhat consistant with the character from SG-time on. They've been careful about not making McKay the absolute miracle maker that Sam was (and how often did I roll my eyes on some of those?). Usually McKay has succeeded in Atlantis through a combination of ideas and teamwork (hotzone, storm, even duelity last week...). So it's not totally out of the blue to do this if they do. But dang, if they do, I'm going to wince big time. Especially if they make everybody turn against him because of it (which I'm also afraid of).

McKay's had more than enough ego-tearing down incidents in the last year, in my opinion. I don't think he's the same person that blithely took away the powersource in Childhood's End -- he's had his own set of close-calls, as well as a serious number of people he's been responsible for and cared about dying in front of him from things he probably thinks he could have done something about. To reset the writing clock and make him the ego-person of original SG-1 appearance just to prove a point that he's not right about everything... I don't think would do him any justice at all.

And I could be (and horribly hope I am) totally and completely wrong on that idea of what they might do. But I'm seriously in finger-nail chewing mode right now thinking about it. I don't trust SG writers. I trust fanfic writers more than I trust SG writers. And I'm scared. :(

[merelyn.livejournal.com]

His ego said it could be done and he insisted it could and then it failed big time.

I agree. Because even with the "I'm an extremely arrogant man who tends to think all his plans will work!" line from Storm/Eye (right? I think?), with most of Rodney's plans he acknowledges the odds. Like I said below in my reply to sivib's comment, there's always his pessimism there to balance out his ego. Normally he's the one going on about how screwed they are, what a long shot the crazy plan is, while everyone else assumes that he can do it and that it will work in the end. And up until now they've been right.

And yes, one thing I love is the teamwork aspect of the show. Even though it's easy to think that Rodney is always the one coming up with the ideas and fixing everything, if you think about it, that's never exactly the case. And Rodney has been generally good (as much as he can be) at playing with others up til this point.

What I can see possibly happening is him having some idea and completely ignoring everyone who says that he's wrong. And while generally Elizabeth and John and Rodney are able to get through to Rodney when he's going in the wrong direction (like "Duet", for instance), maybe this time they won't be able to, and when it all goes to hell Rodney will learn that he can't do it alone and that other people are sometimes right.

McKay has screwed up before- like in "Childhood's End" when he breaks the ZPM thing (again, crap writing more than anything probably there), and in "Brotherhood" where he's the reason why Alina takes the ZPM at the end. But maybe this time there's no last-minute Hail Mary plan to save them. Maybe Rodney's going to end up with something on par with "I woke up the Wraith" guilt complex that John's got. *huggles John*

And as for everyone turning on him, you're right, poor Rodney has been through a lot of crap and has definitely grown a lot in adversity. And while I hope the writers don't have *everyone* turn on him, there would be no better way to do bring his character down. Personally, I would actuall enjoy the angsty drama that would result from that. Very much. (Angst-whore!!!) Which is why I'm actually kinda sorta looking forward to this episode.

Again, all speculation on my part. We'll see.

[merelyn.livejournal.com]

I don't trust SG writers. I trust fanfic writers more than I trust SG writers.

Also, WORD.